1 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:15,520 JEREMY: Hello and welcome to another episode of Eat This Podcast with me, Jeremy Cherfas. 2 00:00:18,080 --> 00:00:24,000 Today, two conversations about coffee in Italy and beyond. 3 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:28,720 WENDY: My name is Wendy Pojmann. I'm a professor of history at Siena University in Albany, 4 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:33,800 New York, and I published a book called Espresso: The Art and Soul of Italy. 5 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:39,600 And I've also done other work about baristas, which was a paper for the University of Bologna. 6 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:44,640 GRAZIA: I am Grazia Deng. I'm an anthropologist. 7 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:50,960 I'm currently a research scholar at Brandeis University in the Boston area. 8 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:54,680 I wrote the book Chinese Espresso. 9 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:58,700 JEREMY: Hipster Baristas and Chinese Espresso. 10 00:00:58,700 --> 00:01:08,680 Together, Wendy Pojmann from Siena College and Grazia Ting Deng at Brandeis University demonstrate that there's nothing static 11 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:13,480 about tradition, not even the tradition of espresso. 12 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:20,000 So let's start with Wendy Pojmann and her essay on Barista Cool. 13 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:26,960 WENDY: The idea of the hipster barista for me came from when I saw a Barista Ken doll. 14 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:35,800 So Mattel made a barista Ken who is male, has his hair styled in a kind of man bun. 15 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:44,880 He has a denim apron on, kind of wide leg pants, and the white sneakers. 16 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:48,680 And he was sort of the epitome of this idea of barista cool. 17 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:57,280 So I became curious about why Mattel did that, or how ubiquitous this kind of barista cool culture was. 18 00:01:58,310 --> 00:02:05,510 JEREMY: But Ken, Ken doesn't have a beard and he doesn't have tattoos, which to me are the mark of a cool barista. 19 00:02:06,190 --> 00:02:13,510 WENDY: It might be a little too much for Mattel. I don't think they have any tattooed Barbies or any kind of body art. 20 00:02:13,630 --> 00:02:18,430 So they could make some sleeves, tattoo sleeves to put on Barista Ken. 21 00:02:18,470 --> 00:02:24,030 But yeah, that is a little bit, you know, not necessarily the typical barista that you would see. 22 00:02:24,790 --> 00:02:29,990 JEREMY: Mattel must have ... I mean, Mattel probably have their fingers on the pulse in all sorts of places, 23 00:02:29,990 --> 00:02:34,270 but can you pinpoint the origin of cool baristas? 24 00:02:34,910 --> 00:02:41,150 WENDY: Well, I think there's a mix of influences on what becomes the cool barista. 25 00:02:41,390 --> 00:02:45,350 So I think in a way, the idea of a professional barista is very Italian, 26 00:02:46,070 --> 00:02:52,110 and Italian baristi would also dress in an appropriate way, more professional looking, 27 00:02:52,150 --> 00:03:01,830 very clean and put together. But when Starbucks founder Howard Schultz came to Italy and saw 28 00:03:02,030 --> 00:03:08,110 this professional barista culture, and he wanted to do something similar to what he was developing in 29 00:03:08,110 --> 00:03:13,030 Seattle. So when the first Starbucks opened in Seattle, it was actually very, 30 00:03:13,030 --> 00:03:17,230 very casual, kind of, you know, shorts and flip flops, kind of casual. 31 00:03:17,590 --> 00:03:22,190 And Schultz said, no, I think we want to make this a little different. 32 00:03:22,230 --> 00:03:28,150 So then they started to introduce the green aprons and require a dress code of the barista, 33 00:03:29,190 --> 00:03:35,670 which was actually fairly rigid. Then in the meantime, we have the development of specialty coffee shops, 34 00:03:36,430 --> 00:03:40,910 and they kind of converge both of these aesthetics, let's say. 35 00:03:41,190 --> 00:03:50,670 So you have the idea of professionalised barista, plus a little bit of personal style 36 00:03:50,990 --> 00:03:55,990 that emerges as well. And I think that depending on what part of the world you're in, 37 00:03:56,030 --> 00:03:57,670 it looks a little bit different. 38 00:03:58,230 --> 00:04:03,950 JEREMY: Depending on what part of the world you're in; are there sort of hotbeds of barista cool, 39 00:04:03,990 --> 00:04:04,750 would you say? 40 00:04:05,510 --> 00:04:10,670 WENDY: Yes, i would say definitely. You know, it all sort of started in Seattle, 41 00:04:10,670 --> 00:04:13,470 Portland, the Pacific Northwest in the US. 42 00:04:14,150 --> 00:04:23,550 You'll see some cities in France. And then Tokyo would be another place where you see the the barista cool idea. 43 00:04:23,590 --> 00:04:29,550 Even in South Korea, there's this kind of aesthetic, which is not only how they're dressed, 44 00:04:29,550 --> 00:04:31,870 but also the way they're preparing the coffee. 45 00:04:32,030 --> 00:04:36,230 And the coffee is also styled not just the people. 46 00:04:36,510 --> 00:04:43,990 JEREMY: And then in Italy, which sort of exported the idea of the professionally dressed barista, 47 00:04:43,990 --> 00:04:47,910 if you like, to Starbucks, does that, then relax. 48 00:04:47,910 --> 00:04:55,830 Does it then adopt? Because most bars in Italy you get, you get the machine coffee, 49 00:04:56,070 --> 00:04:58,190 but you don't get the specialty coffees. 50 00:04:58,190 --> 00:05:02,910 You don't get the pour overs. So how does it come back to Italy? 51 00:05:03,390 --> 00:05:08,910 WENDY: Well, I think it comes back to Italy through probably the millennial generation, 52 00:05:08,950 --> 00:05:16,270 honestly. And so this younger group of people who are interested in everything artisanal. 53 00:05:16,270 --> 00:05:21,230 So whether it be beer or coffee, they're looking for authenticity, for quality. 54 00:05:21,230 --> 00:05:24,590 They want to know what where their food or drink is coming from. 55 00:05:24,990 --> 00:05:31,470 So I think it's really that generation that starts to change the culture in Italy as well. 56 00:05:31,510 --> 00:05:36,790 And so now there are many specialty coffee shops in Italy and they do do pour over. 57 00:05:36,790 --> 00:05:41,270 They do, you know, mocha coffee, they do American filter coffee. 58 00:05:42,230 --> 00:05:47,390 So it's not necessarily all espresso based, but when it is espresso based, 59 00:05:47,590 --> 00:05:49,550 again, there's a particular origin. 60 00:05:49,550 --> 00:05:56,870 They know where it came from, they're into the _mono-origine_ types of coffees and prepared in a certain way. 61 00:05:56,870 --> 00:06:01,430 So they're not necessarily using coffee of the big manufacturers. 62 00:06:01,710 --> 00:06:05,790 JEREMY: One of the things that's interesting in Italy is that the traditional bars, 63 00:06:05,790 --> 00:06:11,910 the more traditional bars, are usually tied to one coffee manufacturer, 64 00:06:11,910 --> 00:06:18,190 roaster. Do you think that's holding back the development of specialty coffees here? 65 00:06:19,110 --> 00:06:24,510 WENDY: Well, I think the majority of Italians are used to their neighborhood bar. 66 00:06:25,110 --> 00:06:32,670 And the owners do, in fact, sign contracts with the _torrefazione_, the roasteries. 67 00:06:33,310 --> 00:06:37,430 And with those contracts, they promise exclusivity. 68 00:06:37,710 --> 00:06:42,150 And they also then receive all the the _tazze_, the _tazzine_, all of the, 69 00:06:42,190 --> 00:06:46,830 you know, the mugs and cups and all of the serving things that go with that brand. 70 00:06:47,070 --> 00:06:49,470 So the branding is very clear. 71 00:06:49,870 --> 00:06:58,620 I do see in some of the specialty coffee shops in Rome in particular, that they maybe include multiple roasters. 72 00:06:58,660 --> 00:07:05,340 Actually, the other day I was walking on the Via Quattro Fontane and I stopped into a specialty coffee shop there, 73 00:07:05,460 --> 00:07:09,740 and they were actually featuring a coffee by an Irish roaster, which I thought was pretty interesting. 74 00:07:09,980 --> 00:07:16,340 JEREMY: Yeah. And this idea of the barista knowing about the coffees, that's also something, 75 00:07:16,340 --> 00:07:19,260 I think, slightly different from the average coffee bar. 76 00:07:19,900 --> 00:07:29,260 WENDY: Yes. And, you know, although perhaps again, there was a professionalisation of being a barista in the 70s and 80s, 77 00:07:29,260 --> 00:07:33,940 but then perhaps it declined and was seen as maybe a lesser type of job. 78 00:07:34,500 --> 00:07:41,500 But I do think that it's come back and that people are more interested in knowing about what they're drinking. 79 00:07:42,220 --> 00:07:48,580 JEREMY: And as far as the traditional Italian coffee bar is concerned, I mean, 80 00:07:49,340 --> 00:07:52,500 you can occasionally get a really bad coffee. 81 00:07:52,940 --> 00:08:02,540 Do you think the average espresso drinker in Italy, do you think they they actually care about the quality of the coffee? 82 00:08:02,980 --> 00:08:07,060 WENDY: I think they do actually. I was in a restaurant the other day near Sao Paulo, 83 00:08:07,580 --> 00:08:14,180 and the the waiter brought an espresso to the table and I could see that it didn't look good. 84 00:08:14,380 --> 00:08:17,900 You know, it had like ... First of all, it was kind of spilled out of the cup. 85 00:08:17,900 --> 00:08:23,500 And then the woman actually sent it back and she said that there were grounds in the coffee. I do think Italians care. 86 00:08:23,500 --> 00:08:29,660 And I do send it back if I see that it wasn't prepared correctly or carefully. 87 00:08:30,740 --> 00:08:37,540 And you know, some of the bars, some of it depends on how many coffees they're making a day, 88 00:08:38,460 --> 00:08:44,420 because the more a bar works, the better the coffee usually is because the machines need time. 89 00:08:44,620 --> 00:08:47,660 The machines work well when they're being used constantly. 90 00:08:47,900 --> 00:08:54,460 So if they're sitting around cooling off and have to get heated up again, that can also affect the extraction of the espresso. 91 00:08:55,140 --> 00:08:59,380 And so normally I try to avoid bars that don't look like a lot of people go there, 92 00:08:59,380 --> 00:09:07,980 at least not for coffee. And I do think Italians care about the presentation and the, 93 00:09:08,340 --> 00:09:15,740 taste, and some of the bars especially that maybe are a little like overworked and don't have enough staff to keep up on things. 94 00:09:15,780 --> 00:09:19,540 And sometimes the machines are dirty and that can also give you a stomach ache. 95 00:09:19,860 --> 00:09:22,660 So all of that factors in. 96 00:09:23,660 --> 00:09:33,100 JEREMY: One of the interesting things in your original paper about barista cool is the preponderance of cool men. 97 00:09:33,340 --> 00:09:38,420 There aren't a lot of cool women baristas. 98 00:09:38,420 --> 00:09:40,540 In fact, there aren't a lot of women baristas. 99 00:09:40,700 --> 00:09:42,460 Why do you think that is? 100 00:09:43,140 --> 00:09:46,810 WENDY: I think at the beginning, because it is a physical job. 101 00:09:46,850 --> 00:09:54,770 Being able to lift heavy bags of beans, dealing with all of the dishes and plates. 102 00:09:54,770 --> 00:09:57,570 So I think it was considered a physically demanding job. 103 00:09:57,610 --> 00:10:02,210 Being on your feet all day again, even the movement of the portafilter, 104 00:10:02,250 --> 00:10:05,210 you know, off and on the machine, it's a very physical job. 105 00:10:05,210 --> 00:10:08,890 So I think it became more associated with masculinity. 106 00:10:09,210 --> 00:10:16,410 I think there's also the idea of the hours, you know, having to be at the espresso bar very early in the morning 107 00:10:16,410 --> 00:10:19,450 and maybe, you know, women unaccompanied on the street. 108 00:10:19,610 --> 00:10:24,250 There was sort of ... you know, not a proper job for a young lady. 109 00:10:25,010 --> 00:10:34,770 And I think, though, in the barista cool aspect, I still to this day with the specialty coffee shops tend to 110 00:10:34,810 --> 00:10:44,290 see more men behind the espresso machine and more women maybe taking the orders at the cash register and in social 111 00:10:44,410 --> 00:10:53,210 media. Yes, there can be sort of attractive male baristas showing their muscles and cool tattoos and slinging their 112 00:10:54,490 --> 00:11:04,450 latte art, showing off their work. And with women then, there often will tend to be more of like a sexiness to it more 113 00:11:04,490 --> 00:11:05,690 than a coolness. 114 00:11:07,490 --> 00:11:15,730 JEREMY: Nothing changes. Looking to the future, it seems that in so many areas the 115 00:11:16,930 --> 00:11:21,970 artisanal which people are looking for, and the interesting, and the neighbourhood, 116 00:11:22,650 --> 00:11:33,170 is giving way to the industrial and the standardised and the reliable brand. 117 00:11:33,850 --> 00:11:38,610 Do you see the same thing even with specialty coffee? 118 00:11:38,610 --> 00:11:44,250 Or is it always going to be a kind of niche that it'll be in balance with. 119 00:11:44,290 --> 00:11:49,010 WENDY: In some places. I think I've almost seen too many specialty coffee shops popping up. 120 00:11:49,770 --> 00:11:55,370 Actually, even, I was on a trip recently to the Midwest in the United States to visit my family, 121 00:11:55,930 --> 00:12:02,730 and there were four or five little specialty coffee shops in suburban Kansas City. 122 00:12:02,930 --> 00:12:05,210 And that was a little unexpected for me. 123 00:12:05,370 --> 00:12:13,450 And I wondered if the population there can support all of that, or if people will just do the easy thing and run to the Starbucks 124 00:12:13,450 --> 00:12:14,530 that's nearby. 125 00:12:15,690 --> 00:12:23,090 JEREMY: I get the impression that there is a kind of a backlash to the price of coffee in specialty coffee shops, 126 00:12:23,330 --> 00:12:28,770 and in that regard, the neighbourhood bar is is an astonishing bargain. 127 00:12:28,770 --> 00:12:33,130 I can remember when I used to come to Italy on holiday and people in England would say, 128 00:12:33,170 --> 00:12:35,690 oh my God, you can't possibly afford a coffee there. 129 00:12:35,690 --> 00:12:40,890 And now a coffee here is like a third of the price of a coffee in England. 130 00:12:41,610 --> 00:12:50,650 WENDY: My favorite, or my historic, coffee bar that I started going to when I was an undergraduate student here in Rome is the bar San Callisto in 131 00:12:50,650 --> 00:12:54,530 Trastevere, which is a classic Roman bar. 132 00:12:54,690 --> 00:12:57,930 They recently renovated. Luckily, they didn't completely transform it. 133 00:12:57,930 --> 00:12:59,690 They maintained the original style. 134 00:12:59,970 --> 00:13:03,770 But, so I went to get my first espresso there after the grand reopening, 135 00:13:04,130 --> 00:13:07,218 and it was only 90 cents for an espresso. 136 00:13:07,218 --> 00:13:11,050 I was like, whoa, and only 90 cents, so they've kind of kept their sort of proletarian ethic, 137 00:13:11,090 --> 00:13:20,530 I guess. And yeah, in upstate New York, I went to a coffee bar a few 138 00:13:20,970 --> 00:13:27,890 weeks ago, and they were asking $6 for a cappuccino, $4.50 for a _cortado_, 139 00:13:27,890 --> 00:13:30,410 which is half espresso and half milk. 140 00:13:30,970 --> 00:13:37,890 And that's a lot of money. It actually makes me tend to just stay home and make my own coffee. 141 00:13:37,890 --> 00:13:44,570 I have a nice Italian machine, and I do use mostly Italian roasts myself at home -- 142 00:13:45,130 --> 00:13:54,970 Kimbo, Trombetta, Illy -- so I get to have that little bit of my own authentic Italian espresso feeling at home. 143 00:13:54,970 --> 00:14:01,770 And, you know, it costs me maybe 55 cents a coffee versus $4.50. 144 00:14:01,810 --> 00:14:02,410 So yeah. 145 00:14:03,490 --> 00:14:06,970 JEREMY: Yeah. Of course, you don't get to look at the hip cool baristas. 146 00:14:08,810 --> 00:14:09,490 WENDY: This is true. 147 00:14:13,170 --> 00:14:16,770 JEREMY: Wendy Pojmann becoming her own barista. 148 00:14:17,690 --> 00:14:22,050 And on now to Grazia Ting Deng and Chinese Espresso. 149 00:14:22,930 --> 00:14:29,810 The neighbourhood bar in Italy has always been a way for migrant workers to get a step up in the cities, 150 00:14:30,010 --> 00:14:33,650 to earn a bit more and become a bit more independent. 151 00:14:34,250 --> 00:14:39,040 And as Wendy Pojmann explained, if you can save up enough to buy a bar, 152 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:45,960 the coffee company will supply the beans, the cups, the espresso machine and the training to use it. 153 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:52,680 Grazia Deng told me that the Chinese are no different from other migrant workers. 154 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:58,320 As Italian bar owners retire and sell up because their children aren't interested, 155 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:03,960 Chinese immigrants are following the same path and buying those bars. 156 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:10,720 But how did she come to do the research that ended up as Chinese Espresso? 157 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:16,400 GRAZIA: The first time I went to Italy was in mid 2000. 158 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:20,920 I was an exchange student in the University of Trento. 159 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:28,960 I majored in Italian studies, so I was there learning Italian, writing my thesis dissertation. 160 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:39,000 Okay, so at that point, I didn't see any bars run by Chinese, but I was aware that the bars 161 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:40,960 are very essential in everyday life. 162 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:46,000 You know, everyone goes there, even including me, without a coffee culture. 163 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:53,800 But I would not say that it was a place that most of the Chinese in Italy would go at that point or regularly go. 164 00:15:55,120 --> 00:16:03,280 And then, you know, years after, when I was doing my PhD, I was deciding what project to do. 165 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:06,880 I wanted to do something that can bridge China and Italy. 166 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:14,200 And then just by chance, I heard from my advisor, actually, Oh, I have a friend in Italy, 167 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:24,000 Italian friend, so a bar in her community, in her neighbourhood, is 168 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:25,360 now run by Chinese. 169 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:28,120 I was like, no way. There's no way. 170 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:34,960 You know, this is different from what I experienced, you know, my lived experiences in Italy. 171 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:40,800 I was in Hong Kong at that point. So I asked a friend in Bologna, so do me a favour. 172 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:47,080 Just, you know, walk from your home to the university, see if you can find any, 173 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:50,920 you know, bars run by Chinese. And my friend was very nice. 174 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:58,200 He walked around in the city center, _centro storico_, and then he told me he found more than 20. 175 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,400 I was like, okay, that's the thing. 176 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:04,160 This is my project. 177 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:14,400 JEREMY: So you came to Bologna. You already spoke fluent Italian, you were going to do a kind of anthropology of Chinese owned bars, 178 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:20,800 but not just observational. You actually went and worked in a Chinese owned bar. 179 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:27,000 GRAZIA: I always wanted to have that barista experience myself, but it was not possible. 180 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:32,920 In the beginning. I didn't know any Chinese baristas, so I just walked around and, 181 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:36,600 you know, said hello to see, to observe if they are nice to me. 182 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:42,160 So some are nice, some are not. But in the end, I was able to, you know, 183 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:51,406 have some barista friends, but I could only start my barista experience 184 00:17:51,406 --> 00:17:58,040 like at least six months after, because before that, I broke my arm. 185 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:05,320 So I had the cast there. So I just walked around, you know, talked to people in the bar, 186 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:11,480 with the cast. Then, once the cast was removed, I talked to my barista friend. 187 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:15,835 So actually, I was also interested in learning this. 188 00:18:15,835 --> 00:18:19,240 And this guy, this Chinese guy, was very nice. 189 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:24,040 And he told me that he actually trained several Chinese baristas in his bar. 190 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:28,600 And then it's fine that I could just, you know, do it like others. 191 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:34,710 JEREMY: So what do you think, as a working barista, Chinese barista, in a Chinese bar, 192 00:18:34,870 --> 00:18:39,590 what kind of insights did that give you into the experience? 193 00:18:40,310 --> 00:18:47,630 GRAZIA: So, the first thing I noticed was that when I crossed that little old gate, 194 00:18:47,670 --> 00:18:56,390 right, I started working as a barista, people became, like, more friendly with me. 195 00:18:56,790 --> 00:19:02,710 So it was because usually you go to those, like, neighbourhood bars, _barre di quartiere_ no, 196 00:19:03,030 --> 00:19:07,710 mostly the clients were men, right? 197 00:19:08,350 --> 00:19:14,830 Often, you know, men with more advanced advanced age. 198 00:19:16,030 --> 00:19:22,470 Often it was awkward for both me and them to initiate the conversation, 199 00:19:23,590 --> 00:19:26,950 right? So when I became a barista, that was different. 200 00:19:27,110 --> 00:19:31,030 So they they felt confident and natural to talk to me. 201 00:19:31,030 --> 00:19:32,350 That was the first ... 202 00:19:33,110 --> 00:19:35,590 JEREMY: Because that's the kind of defined relationship. 203 00:19:35,590 --> 00:19:36,830 You're not just a Chinese? 204 00:19:37,870 --> 00:19:46,310 GRAZIA: Yeah. I became a Chinese with a proper role in the bar, not before. 205 00:19:46,550 --> 00:19:51,550 Right? Before I was an observer. So that was the first change. 206 00:19:51,910 --> 00:20:00,470 The second thing is that I actually could understand that it was not that difficult to be a barista, 207 00:20:02,750 --> 00:20:10,510 at least in the bar, in the neighborhood bar, because I didn't really need to learn many skills, 208 00:20:10,550 --> 00:20:16,980 you know. With some training, I could be quite proficient with, quite skilled with, 209 00:20:16,980 --> 00:20:19,510 the coffee machine, with espresso machine. 210 00:20:20,230 --> 00:20:25,321 And then with some training, I could make a cappuccino, make the good ... 211 00:20:25,321 --> 00:20:28,390 Even like the latte art design, right? 212 00:20:29,190 --> 00:20:39,030 JEREMY: So more generally talking about the Chinese coffee bars, my impression is that there's a lot 213 00:20:39,030 --> 00:20:48,402 of, kind of casual racism in Italy and this business 214 00:20:48,402 --> 00:20:55,270 being visibly different. Does that make the racism more complicated? 215 00:20:56,390 --> 00:21:04,830 GRAZIA: Oh, definitely. It's complicated because on the one hand, they are anti-immigrants. 216 00:21:04,830 --> 00:21:08,630 They are racist against Chinese baristas, you know, Chinese in general. 217 00:21:09,110 --> 00:21:16,030 On the other hand, they couldn't avoid the bars run by Chinese, because that's a big, 218 00:21:16,030 --> 00:21:19,270 that has become the essential part of their everyday life. 219 00:21:19,630 --> 00:21:23,630 So that's complicated. This is one thing. 220 00:21:23,670 --> 00:21:33,260 Second, so in a bar run by Chinese the interactions are actually, you know, 221 00:21:34,620 --> 00:21:38,540 complicated by the racial understandings, right? 222 00:21:38,780 --> 00:21:43,660 There are positive sides. I wouldn't, you know, it's all negative. 223 00:21:43,700 --> 00:21:48,900 There are some positive sides, but there are definitely a lot of negative sides. 224 00:21:49,140 --> 00:21:56,100 JEREMY: Was there ever a suggestion that as a Chinese person you couldn't possibly make a good coffee? 225 00:21:56,300 --> 00:21:57,620 GRAZIA: Oh yeah. Exactly. 226 00:21:57,660 --> 00:21:59,420 JEREMY: Even though it's the machine. I mean ... 227 00:22:01,660 --> 00:22:11,260 GRAZIA: You know, Italian identity, _Italianita_, is related to material 228 00:22:11,260 --> 00:22:15,340 culture. Let's say fashion, food, right? 229 00:22:15,380 --> 00:22:19,940 Sport. These things. And coffee is one of them, espresso. 230 00:22:20,380 --> 00:22:23,300 So the idea is that Italian coffee is good. 231 00:22:23,300 --> 00:22:31,020 And then to make a good Italian espresso you need to use the Italian coffee and the Italian baristas, 232 00:22:32,060 --> 00:22:37,300 they have their connections. So in the beginning, the first reaction was always like, 233 00:22:37,340 --> 00:22:39,540 oh, Chinese can't make good coffee. 234 00:22:40,460 --> 00:22:45,460 But things are changing because with more and more bars run by Chinese, 235 00:22:45,500 --> 00:22:48,020 they can't avoid and they have more experience. 236 00:22:48,020 --> 00:22:54,620 And then at least some people would say that, oh, you know, they are good. 237 00:22:54,900 --> 00:22:55,380 Yeah. 238 00:22:55,420 --> 00:22:59,300 JEREMY: If it's your local coffee bar, either in a small town or on the periphery, 239 00:22:59,340 --> 00:23:03,500 you have no choice. If you want your coffee, you have to get it. 240 00:23:04,500 --> 00:23:11,620 So presumably the customers, regular customers will at least come to see it as fine. 241 00:23:12,300 --> 00:23:15,940 GRAZIA: Yeah. So maybe in the beginning they had the choice. 242 00:23:15,940 --> 00:23:22,860 They go, they go to a bar where they have to walk two blocks to arrive, 243 00:23:22,900 --> 00:23:27,300 right? But then they also hear from other people saying, Oh, that, you know, 244 00:23:27,340 --> 00:23:34,700 the Chinese lady is very _simpatica_, so they will probably go to try and then after trying, 245 00:23:34,860 --> 00:23:38,620 Oh, actually nice, huh? So they would even go back. 246 00:23:38,740 --> 00:23:40,060 You know, that happens a lot. 247 00:23:40,500 --> 00:23:47,780 JEREMY: So the reason not just Chinese, but immigrant workers get a bar is to get a better life, 248 00:23:47,900 --> 00:23:50,460 to make their family more economically secure. 249 00:23:51,100 --> 00:23:58,620 A lot of the immigrants came from China in the early 2000 to do exactly that. 250 00:23:59,020 --> 00:24:08,420 Looking back on it from now, Italy has been more or less the same economically. 251 00:24:08,660 --> 00:24:18,340 China has gone way ahead. Did you come across any Chinese coffee bar owners who said maybe it 252 00:24:18,340 --> 00:24:21,660 wasn't such a great idea to come to Italy? 253 00:24:21,980 --> 00:24:31,380 GRAZIA: Yes, some will say that if they stayed in China, you know, never emigrated, 254 00:24:31,780 --> 00:24:36,020 their lives would not, was not that bad. 255 00:24:36,580 --> 00:24:40,900 Or because they have relatives there, you know, people with similar backgrounds, 256 00:24:40,900 --> 00:24:47,340 they were doing great, especially the region where they were from. 257 00:24:47,540 --> 00:24:51,660 Most of the Chinese in Italy are from a specific region in China. 258 00:24:52,740 --> 00:24:57,900 I would say 80%, 90% of the Chinese in Italy from a specific region. 259 00:24:58,060 --> 00:25:07,780 It's called Wenzhou and the surrounding area, it's like 500km south from Shanghai. 260 00:25:08,220 --> 00:25:17,020 In that region, people have a strong regional identity associated with migration and small entrepreneurship. 261 00:25:17,340 --> 00:25:20,220 Okay. So they are basically everywhere in the world. 262 00:25:20,660 --> 00:25:29,450 And then, right, in the early 80s, so the area, especially rural 263 00:25:29,450 --> 00:25:36,210 area, they were not doing very well economically. 264 00:25:36,210 --> 00:25:39,850 So many people just left and then went to other countries. 265 00:25:40,050 --> 00:25:46,010 But more recently in the last three decades, I would say four decades, 266 00:25:46,330 --> 00:25:51,490 the region is doing really great and is economically very wealthy. 267 00:25:52,210 --> 00:25:57,530 You know, also thanks to, partly thanks to, the, you know, the overseas connections, 268 00:25:57,570 --> 00:26:07,410 right? So people are rich there. And then when these Chinese migrants in Italy looked 269 00:26:07,410 --> 00:26:12,130 back and, you know, saw their family members, how they are doing in the region, 270 00:26:12,130 --> 00:26:16,610 in China, they are kind of saying like some regret. 271 00:26:17,090 --> 00:26:22,450 JEREMY: And then one of the things that enabled the Chinese to buy these bars, 272 00:26:22,850 --> 00:26:28,210 you said, was because the Italian families, their kids didn't want to take over. 273 00:26:28,650 --> 00:26:36,730 Is the same happening now with the Chinese owned bars that the children don't want to run a coffee bar? 274 00:26:37,130 --> 00:26:41,530 GRAZIA: If they have a choice? So we think about that. 275 00:26:43,090 --> 00:26:52,530 The first generation Chinese migrants went to Italy in the late 90s or early 2000s, 276 00:26:52,570 --> 00:26:57,530 or even after, when they were in their late 20s or early 30s. 277 00:26:57,570 --> 00:27:06,170 Right? So their kids were still young, and then they left their children in China, 278 00:27:06,490 --> 00:27:09,610 or after several years, they brought their children to Italy. 279 00:27:09,610 --> 00:27:12,810 Maybe they had the second children or third children in Italy. 280 00:27:13,050 --> 00:27:21,250 So now, 20 years after, kids are in their 20s or 30s. 281 00:27:21,650 --> 00:27:29,930 Those who were born in China and went to school in China, they are not like just the second generation who were born in Italy 282 00:27:29,930 --> 00:27:33,530 and raised in Italy. They are one and a half generation migrants. 283 00:27:33,690 --> 00:27:38,170 So they probably, many of them, were not able to go to college in Italy. 284 00:27:39,090 --> 00:27:47,970 I knew some who went to college for economics, psychology, law, all those kind of professional degrees. 285 00:27:48,410 --> 00:27:55,650 And then some of them went back to family-run small businesses because they couldn't see the future. 286 00:27:55,850 --> 00:28:01,810 Partly because of the, you know, the general economic situation in Italy and, 287 00:28:01,850 --> 00:28:05,210 you know, the underpaid and no promotion. 288 00:28:05,650 --> 00:28:14,770 But then partly also because of the ceilings in the job market. 289 00:28:14,930 --> 00:28:19,410 Right? So in the office, they had to deal with casual racism, then probably, 290 00:28:20,250 --> 00:28:24,050 possibly, they were the first Chinese working in that company. 291 00:28:24,530 --> 00:28:28,570 And then, you know, so why do they need to face that? 292 00:28:29,410 --> 00:28:34,490 JEREMY: So what's the future? I mean, can you imagine, can you push yourself ten, 293 00:28:34,530 --> 00:28:39,850 15 years into the future? How does the the coffee bar culture look in Italy? 294 00:28:41,170 --> 00:28:46,850 GRAZIA: Well, so I talked to a sociologist, Italian sociologist, ten years ago. 295 00:28:46,850 --> 00:28:56,450 And then he, his opinion was that in 20 years, this kind of traditional bar, 296 00:28:56,490 --> 00:28:58,850 _bar di quartiere_, would disappear. 297 00:29:00,330 --> 00:29:03,450 Like, not completely, but kind of, a way of life. 298 00:29:03,890 --> 00:29:13,650 So I would agree that, so in 20 years or in the future, if we think about if there are Chinese 299 00:29:13,690 --> 00:29:16,090 still behind the coffee bars, I would say yes. 300 00:29:16,090 --> 00:29:22,720 Because, as I say, the Chinese, within the Chinese communities, you know, 301 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,240 they are also more and more diversified. 302 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,360 Some went to college, some become professionals. 303 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:38,720 And those who were not able to leave and had to stay in the family business, 304 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:43,760 maybe they have the chance to buy a better bar rather than, you know, 305 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:47,680 stay in the, you know, peripheral bar. 306 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:53,680 But I will say we can see more diversities in terms of types of bar. 307 00:29:55,200 --> 00:30:01,080 JEREMY: Gracia Ting Deng, author of Chinese Espresso from Princeton University Press. 308 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:09,920 Before her, I was talking to Wendy Pojmann of Siena College in New York about her work on espresso and hipster baristas. 309 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:12,160 My thanks to both of them. 310 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:17,520 And as usual, there'll be links in the show notes at EatThisPodcast.com, 311 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:27,760 so you can follow up if you wish. And it's time for my sporadic reminder that Eat This Podcast will always be free to listen to for 312 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:34,080 everyone. Some generous people, however, contribute a little to make that possible, 313 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:38,320 and it would mean a lot to me if you would consider joining them. 314 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:44,720 Just go to the donors' page at EatThisPodcast.com/supporters and sign up. 315 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:52,120 Reviews, ratings, and best of all, word of mouth recommendations are also a great help, 316 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:56,920 so please feel free to spread the word and help others to find the show. 317 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:05,800 And that's it for this episode. So till the next time from me, Jeremy Cherfas and Eat This Podcast, 318 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,080 goodbye and thanks for listening.